Guest Post Backlash

I hope you’re having a great start to your Memorial Day weekend! I’m currently flying home from Dallas, reading a bunch of post from posers as they attempt to flame me for my guest post on Steve Nixon’s Blog earlier this week. I had no idea that it would cause such a stir, nor did I know that one of the largest music forums on the web had so many contributors with limited reading comprehension skills. Although I’m not remotely interested in starting a bunch of point-by-point rebuttals, there are a few clarifications that I would like to make.

I. Some knob with the handle “TrickyBoy” wrote the following:

“Not to be a dick, but as a professional sales manager, I wouldn’t hire anyone who took this type of approach. Fuck, I wouldn’t trust you to cut my grass. A recap of this article is one sentence: ‘When trying to book your band, lie your ass off.’ This used car salesman sleazy approach drives me crazy in the professional world and I certainly would never apply it to booking our band.

In a nutshell, I would tell anyone to disregard anything in this article.”

I did a bit of research and found out that our buddy TrickyBoy is a guy named Jason. He lives in the southern portion of the US and, as of last update, is an Account Manager for a small technology outsourcing firm. But hey – let’s take the “professional sales manager” thing at face value and disregard the fact that he could very well just be doing inside sales or telemarketing to pay the bills until his band really takes off. Four things to note here:

1. I learned an important lesson about hiring over these last few years. I put down gigging to run sales and business development for a multi million dollar internet marketing company. It went so well that I became president of that same internet marketing company, increased their revenue up by $60 million or so in 36 months and grew the employee base from 8 to 50ish. All before I was 31? That can’t be – according to TrickyBoy I’d never get hired or called back by a single client! I digress – the lesson is this: You can’t teach, train, compensate, or motivate aggression and tenacity. It’s better to start with a salesperson who is too tenacious and mellow them out rather than have an employee who is too tentative. You’ll never turn the latter into a top performer.

2. I never said lie. (This is where I first began to question my detractors’ reading comprehension skills.) I said act as if you are booking a great band and that you are the agent for that band, and don’t disclose that you are in the band. None of that is lying unless you think your band is incredibly shitty and are asked directly “hey by chance are you also a band member,” which BTW has never happened to me. Create a sole proprietorship or LLC (as I did) and act as your own agent. No “lies” or “sleazy” there. I also said “act as your own receptionist.” Is there anything dishonest about answering your phone “Joe Lilly’s office?” No. Not if you are answering while you’re at work, aka IN YOUR F’ING OFFICE.

3. A “used car salesman sleazy approach” is typically a high-pressure, 1-call type close. Used car salesmen are very short term thinkers. Someone comes on the lot, they close a sale, done. None of my techniques can be applied to that environment. So Jason has either never taken a sales training course or he’s never purchased a car. I’m not sure which.

4. Applied correctly, none of your prospects will realize that you are using these techniques. Once they do you’ll have made them so much money that they will think it is funny. More on that below, as we meet another “muso” that we can call NashvilleDoucher.

II. .Some other wank whose user name I can’t recall, aka NashvilleDoucher, wrote:

“…This is a forum for musicians to HANG. I don’t come here and PROMOTE my band(s), I come here to hang and talk with other musos who are digging in the trenches. This dude is your typical biz asshat. Saw TONS of ‘em in my years in Nashville. And some got work, but once word got around, it was funny how their work dried up. I was a sideman for signed artist for years, and I would NEVER recommend someone for a gig who acted like this. So what happens when the owner finds out your are willing to lie your ass off? He’ll look for a reason to NOT trust you. This is the kind of bullshit that gives musicians a bad name…..”

1. What does musicians hanging and you not understanding fundamentals of self-promotion have to do with my blog post? Here’s a free tip for you – if you are allowed to promote your band on that forum (if it’s not against TOS), you would be a fool not to. Google LOOOOOVES links from forums to your site. It will help your search rankings and more people will find you and want to know what band they can come see you in this week.

2. I thought being late, flakey, not drawing, drinking too much, doing drugs and being an unambitious loser is what gives musicians a bad name…but that’s just me. I’m proposing pretty much the opposite of all that – that you act professional, are punctual, and do you what you need to do to get through the gatekeeper/get the decision maker’s attention – and get booked. Simple as that. That said, I’m sure this guy knows what professionalism is all about with his dozens of bands and side work that he’s doing.

3. If you over-book yourself to the point where you can’t draw an audience, shame on you for being a moron. I never suggested you should play rooms that you can’t fill. We didn’t get to my post on “how to get more people to show up to see you be a sideman years ago in Nashville with biz asshats” post. That one is coming soon.

4. I would never ever ever ever screw a venue owner out of money. If I booked a gig I expected to be a profit center. We jammed lots of the places we played, and if I overbooked us (which happened a few times while I was learning about audience management), we took our earnings and used them to tip the staff or we didn’t take any money. That’s right. We played for free.That made it REALLY easy for these guys to book us even when we drew just a handful – in fact, we got quite a few opening slots exactly that way. We met a lot of other bands, networked a ton and pulled a bunch of fans over to our group.

In short, I guess with all their years of experience in sales and music and business and being flamer dicks on forums, these guys MUST know better how to get bands booked. So you should indeed disregard everything in my guest post, unless, of course, you’d like to play great venues (Taste of Chicago, Buddy Guy’s Legends, Great American Music Hall, Hard Rock Casino), get repeat gigs, fill up your calendar, and start making fans and money. We were able to finance all of our band-related activities including equipment, several CD’s, some small regional weekend-warrior tours, and even put some money in our pockets at the end of the year.

But why would you want to do any of that? :)

P.S. The best part – I’m not an exceptional singer or guitar player and I STILL got the gigs and the people to show up! I’m sure NashvilleDoucher can play circles around me!

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Posted in Business, Music | Tagged as: , | 12 Comments
  • Chad

    Lol Joe I saw the post. These guys are idiots. Typical loser muisicans….

  • baldguitardude

    Be nice bro. :)

  • baldguitardude

    And spellcheck dude.

  • Jason (aka Tricky Boy

    Hey, it's trickyboy

    So what part of this sentence IS honest:

    “Hello, my name is Joe Lilly with Lilly Entertainment. I represent a number of regional acts in the Midwest and happen to have a fantastic group pulling through your neck of the woods on [date you'd like to play].”

    or this one

    “Hello, this is Jeff Anderson calling from Joe Lilly's office at Lilly Entertainment.

    As for my resume, yeah, I'm just a telemarketer biding my time until my band makes it. Or something like that. Yep never taken a sales training course (or conducted one). Speak not of what you don't know.

    As to my original comment, you're complete lack of understanding of what honesty even is really sad. Oh well. You do your thing, I'll do mine.

  • Nashville Doucher

    Nashville Doucher here. Mr. Lilly, just want to let you know personally that I am saddened to see the techniques that you advise to your clients. As a member of the professional music community, I feel that your advice to obfuscate the truth when dealing with the various gatekeepers that we all encounter in this business, is sad. I am aware that you and I will never agree on what “the truth” is, therefore I submit that I am not here to argue or flame. I am here respectfully as a guest.

    I would like to submit to your dear readers that one does not have to call a club owner and hang up mid conversation to get attention. One does not need to act like they have a secretary when they don't. One does not have to use any of the marginal tactics like the ones Mr. Lilly espouse. I make my living playing/writing/performing/producing/teaching/ as a full time musician. I have played some of the biggest sheds, the best theatres, and the hippest clubs, all the way down to tiny coffee houses. I have played with and been employed by some of the greatest musicians on the planet. I have been a sideman for signed and platinum selling acts, I have released 2 cd's, have had my songwriting used on multiplatinum cd's and I have produced music that has been used in programs, commercials, and movies that if you live in the US, you most certainly have heard. I have written books, authored articles in major music magazines. I am sponsored by a guitar manufacturer, and a stomp box company. Is this the kind of success you are promised to get by using the tactics here?

    Well, I don't use those tactics. The people I work with that have grammys and platinum records on their wall, don't resort to the kind of sales tactics that Mr. Lilly promotes wither. Granted, there are quite a few that do. And that is fine. I don't associate with them. Neither do the other full timers I work with. Nor any of the part timers. My purpose here is not to get into a whipping match with anyone, I just want to let the readers here know that there is more than one way to do it. And if your integrity level is making you feel uncomfortable resorting to the techniques sold here, take heart. There is plenty of room for talented, driven people that don't play this game, and have plenty of success. I am but one example…..

  • baldguitardude

    Of course there's more than one way to do things. I am not advocating that this is the only way of doing things. But let's get a few things straight:
    - If your credentials are accurate (which I assume is the case) your client pipeline is already built. Therefore it's really easy for you to look down on aggressive sales tactics, turn up your nose and say “Well I would NEVER do that.” You are already in the 0.01% of musicians who have made it and are therefore afforded the luxury of name recognition and a great network of contacts. Most weekend warriors or newbs don't have that luxury. They need to gig and they need to book and they need to be aggressive. Or they will falter and ultimately fail.
    - You have backed off a great deal from “Music Biz Asshat” and “promo bullshit” and “lying douchebag” to “Marginal,” which I can only assume is because you realize you were overreacting. This is a shame – I think you and I could have created productive dialog about booking techniques instead of you and the guy from Baton Rouge causing a flame war (which I am obviously not going to get involved in). You might want to note that for next time you disagree with someone, as we could've engaged in a valuable debate instead of just resorting to being dismissive and pulling any productivity out of the conversation.
    - Regarding “Is this the kind of success you are promised to get by using the tactics here?” Again you are either misinterpreting or intentionally misrepresenting the intent behind my post. Since you clearly write with intelligence, I'm going to assume the latter. My answer is “of course not.” You know damned well that selling your band in to a venue is step 1. After that you need to show up with as many people that you can and make the venue realize that you are a) very profitable for them, b) easy to work with, and c) a talented group (in that order, in my opinion). The techniques I posted on Steve's blog merely deal with opening the door. I am going to post about that on this forum tonight and would be more than pleased to have you post a comment, as I'm sure my readers would benefit from your experience.
    - I appreciate the fact that your comment above dissented respectfully. In fact, I'd like to offer you a challenge. You've made it. You're a pro. I have used “my way” for my entire career (both music and online marketing) and it has served me well. I've never burned a bridge. Since you disagree with my way, write a counterpoint and shoot it to me. I will give you my first guest post slot (and deal with the 5 I have waiting to be posted).

    Ball is in your court.

  • Jason (aka Tricky Boy

    Hey

    It's TrickyBoy again… You never replied. Which parts of those sentences were honest?

    Whatever dude. It's all good.

  • baldguitardude

    You talk about “honest” and “lie” in such defined terms you might as well be reading from the Bible. If you've ever sold anything you know that it's your job to sell and promote your product. Have you ever said that your product or service is the best/fastest/cheapest/highest in customer satisfaction when you know that there are perfectly viable competitors out there? Yes, you have – or you've never sold anything.

  • Nashville Doucher

    Mr. Lilly,
    Thank you for the offer, but I am going to have to decline. And the reason is that I feel that I can offer EXPERT advice on many things, but not sales. Sales techniques are an art that have been taught many whom I have merely borrowed from. There is nothing I can add. I feel that anyone who aspires to make money in ANY business read everything by Dale Carnegie, Zig Ziglar and my fav Brian Tracy. And while I have read many books about the music business, none are more important or revealing than Moses Avalon's “Confessions of a Record Producer.” In fact read everything he has ever written. I also highly respect the opinions of Derek Sivers regarding the current market status. There is nothing I can add to an aspiring muso that is not covered here. The success I have had in networking and opportunity have come from applying these communication techniques. In musician terms, why learn from a SRV clone, when you can learn from SRV?

    Mr. Lilly, I think where the problem comes in is appropriateness. Harmony Central is a community of musicians of all types. From full timers, to dad bands, to bedroom heroes; every kind of musician is represented there. You'd be surprised at the forumites that have a famous and recognizable brand. We are all equal there: just a bunch of guys digging in the trenches and playin some notes. Some are famous and the rest are not. Some are good, and some are not. But we are a community with personal connections with each other. I know and have met personally several of the players on there.

    One of the forums I frequent is Backstage With The Band section. And it is exactly what the name implies; a group of musicians hanging out and talking 'amonst themselves'. So into our “dressing room” comes somebody who wants to tell us how to promote his blog via sharing a blog about helping us 'get gigs'. It comes off like a lawyer at a car wreck handing out his card. Some see this as aggressive…and it is…and some see it as obnoxious. So what do most musos do in this situation? We go “Who the *%^$ is this guy? Who the *&^%$ does he think he is? Does he know who he is talking to?” Combine that with the fact that many of us would not use some of the techniques you use for ethical reasons, you are going to get some “flaming against”. Problem is, we can't wait for you to walk out of the room.

    A better technique IMHO, would have been to build a relationship with the forumites and getting to know some of us by talking to us before condescending to us. Dropping all this info on us that we disagree with before we even know you, in order to promote a blog is spam to us. I do realize that Nixon reposted your blog there, and the spam issue is really with him as it is in the end , the responsibility of the poster.

    Mr Lilly, you are a part of the full time music community, and I respect what you do. The reason I didn't come here with the same tone as you found at HC, is because I am here as a guest and it is not my intention to show you any disrespect ON YOUR FORUM.

    I would like for you to come and join the party at HC. I have learned much from the forumites there and have made many friends. I have a book deal in the works due to a 'friend of a friend' that I met at HC. Come by, lurk for a while and get a feel for the place, and join in. In fact, next time you are in the Nashville area email me, and I'll buy you an 'olive branch' beverage of your choice!

    Sincerely,
    Nashville Doucher (I think that's what I'm going to name my solo disc! LOL)

  • Jason (aka Tricky Boy

    Sure, puffery is a viable and necessary sales tactic. We all paint ourselves in the best possible light. But calling and representing yourself as someone out is deceitful and fraudulent as is saying you represent several prominent bands when you don't. No more so that creating fake testimonials about yourself.

    It's the difference between me saying “We're the most entertaining band in Baton Rouge” and saying “We just played Madison Square Garden”. One is positioning, the other is an out and out lie.

    By the way, I learned a long time ago to avoid superlatives without qualifiers. “One of the best”, “one of the cheapest”, etc. It comes across as much more credible.

  • baldguitardude

    ND,
    As I'm not a member of HC I'm not really privy to where the link was posted – it was a guest post written for my buddy's blog…as you can see I didn't release it here. Google does love their unique content.

    I'm also not a part of the professional or full time music community – I'm a weekend warrior. I have done too well with the day gig and it's more fun for me to do it recreationally these days.

    Ty for the invite- might take you up on that!

  • baldguitardude

    Fun factoid – fake testimonials are illegal if being used for commercial purposes or to influence a purchasing decision.

    If you're going to nitpick over “Several” versus “A” and that's all your disagreement comes down to with respect to “Deceptiveness,” fine – I will retract my suggestion to say “several prominent groups” and instead say “a prominent group.”

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